Transcript of the Official Shorthand Notes of 'The Trial of Josef Kramer and Forty Four Others'

Eighth Day Tuesday, 25th September, 1945

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DORA SZAFRAN is recalled on her former oath.

MAJOR CRANFIELD: I have an application to make on behalf of all the Defending Officers before the cross examination begins.

Yesterday the witness showed us a scar on her arm. It will be appreciated that the Defending Officers have no medical knowledge, but we have here the officer in charge of the surgical division at 74 General Hospital, and we would like him to inspect the scar before the cross examination commences.


(The witness's arm is examined by the medical officer)

Cross examination by MAJOR WINWOOD: I want first of all to ask you a few questions about Auschwitz. You said yesterday that you went through several selections yourself. Will you tell the Court how many selections you actually attended in person? - I have been through so many selections that I cannot remember whether there were ten, fifteen or twenty.

And how many of these twenty selections was the accused Kramer present? - Quite a few of them.

At the selections at which Kramer was present was there always a doctor there as well? - Yes.

You said yesterday that the people you recognise in the dock here were too important to have taken part in the beatings. Is that true? - That is what I said and it is true. They had the task of sending people to the gas chambers, but the Häftlinge who did the actual beating did it on orders from them.

Yet about three minutes later you said that you had seen Kramer beating. Is that true? - There is no doubt about it that he did take part in the beating, but he had more important tasks such as sending people to be gassed.

Will you describe one occasion on which you saw Kramer beat somebody in Auschwitz or Belsen? - I saw a case - it was in Auschwitz - when with a kommando we were going out to work, and just at the gate one of us, who had either a boot lace badly done up or simply because her shoes were too large - we wore them sometimes four sizes too large - lost her shoe and lost her place in the row of five as we were marching out, and she was beaten so badly by him with a stick.

Was Kramer with the kommando's as they were going out? - Yes, he was standing by the gate.

Could you tell us when this was; about how soon after you got to Auschwitz? - It was the end of 1943, December, the beginning of 1944.

In spite of the distance of time that has passed you can still remember the full details of that one incident? - Yes, I saw so much that I could not possibly forget.

Why did you yesterday when you were first asked about the people in the dock doing the beating say that it was the kommando's who did it, and that these people were too important? - All these people in the dock are either commanders, Oberscharführer, or other people who held positions. None of the people who went with the kommando's are present here.

Cross-examined by MAJOR MUNRO: You told us in your evidence in chief that you had lived for a while in block 25; is that right? - Block 25, B Lager.

We have heard a lot in evidence about block 25 to which it is said people due for the gas chamber were sent. Is this the same block? - There was a block 25 in A Lager; I was in B Lager, block 25.

Do you know about Block 25 in A Lager? - I know a lot.

Is that the block to which it is said people due for the gas chamber were sent? - Yes, and for weeks they were even kept there without water.

Was it used for other purposes? - Afterwards it was used for people with scabies.

You have told us in your evidence in chief about an occasion when the dog in the possession of the accused, Bormann, is said to have attacked a woman. Is that right? - Yes.

I want you to think very carefully and tell us as nearly exactly as you can when this was? - It was in April 1943, and it occurred in B Lager in Block 15.

Was that in Birkenau? - Yes.

Is this the woman? (indicating No. 6, Juana Bormann) - Yes, she has changed a lot, but it is the same woman. The dog was practically as tall as she is.

Are you absolutely certain this is the woman? - Yes.

I put it to you that you are making a mistake? - I am prepared to swear that I am not making a mistake.

May I remind you that you are already on oath? - That is why I am saying it; the truth is so great that I am incapable of expressing it.

Do you know the woman who was attacked? - I did not know the woman personally, but I saw her coming back from the Kommando and she had a swollen leg and the incident which I described yesterday took place.

Can you say what nationality she was? - I cannot say; there were various nationalities in the Kommando's.

Will you please give the Court as careful description as you can of this dog? - I mentioned it yesterday that I am not very well versed in dogs. I think it was an Alsatian, very tall, very black.

Was it entirely black or did it have any distinguishing marks? - I do not remember exactly. In my eyes the dog appeared black.

You have told us that you were coming back from work and that you were marching in fives; is that right? - This question appears strange to me. At the time I had the feeling that I would have to march along in columns of five for the rest of my life.

Am I to take it from what you have said in answer to my question that you were marching in fives at this time? - Yes, daily without end.

Were you on the inside or the outside of the ranks? - It depended. Sometimes because I was cleanly dressed or had cleaner boots I was on the outside when passing the gates.

When the dog attacked the woman were you on the inside or the outside of the ranks? - It was not my Kommando that was marching; it was a Kommando that was coming into the camp. I only saw it.

Where did the incident take place? - The incident took place in the Lager when the Kommando arrived.

Who was in charge of the Kommando? - I do not know who was in charge of the Kommando. It might have been Bormann; I only saw the woman attacked and the dog set on her.

Did many people see what happened? - Yes, I expect there will be more witnesses who saw the incident.

Was there quite a crowd watching? - The Kommando was returning from work and there were a lot of people about in the Lager.

When the dog attacked the woman how far away were you? - I did not stand too close otherwise the dog might have attacked me. I was a little distance away, but I could see what happened.

I want you to try and give me a little clearer idea as to how far away you were? - At the time I was incapable of counting, say, the metres, the distance. I only know that I stood quite near enough to be able to see everything.

Is it not the case that the dog escaped from the guards' control? - I saw it with my own eyes, and the woman boasted about it to an Arbeitsführer afterwards.

Is it not the case that the woman who was attacked broke the ranks? - It was already in the Lager, and I mentioned that the woman had a swollen leg. She lagged behind and that is what happened to her.

Is it not the case that the woman who had charge of the dog tried to stop it from attacking the other woman? - When the dog went for the woman's clothes she rebuked it and urged it to go for the woman's throat.

Is it not the case that the woman who had charge of the dog put her hand on the throat of the other woman to shield it against the attack? - As I am saying for the third time, she commanded the dog to go for the woman's throat to choke her to death.

You have told us that the woman who had charge of the dog boasted about it to an SS man; is that right? - Yes, as the woman died quite a crowd collected round and at the side. The Arbeitsführer came along to find out what it was all about and then she told him "This is my work".

Is it not the case that what you heard the woman say to the SS man was the report as to what had happened? - It is sufficient to say as the body was lying there, and she said: "This is my work" and pointed to the body.

Do you know of your own personal knowledge whether or not the woman died? - Yes, I know, because people working in the Kommando's came along with stretchers and took her away.

Do you know of your own personal knowledge whether the woman was dead when she was taken away on the stretcher? - Yes, I know for certain.

Will you explain to the Court how you know? - She was being borne by the Kommando's who were specially employed in carrying corpses. She may have had a flicker of life still in her, but in any case the dead were sent along with the living. I was only a number just the same as the woman who was being taken away on the stretcher was a number, so had I even wanted to approach her it would not have been allowed.

Did you some time ago make a statement to a British officer? - No; when I saw the woman here I remembered the incident. I mentioned the woman about other incidents but not in this respect.

I will come to that in a moment. All I want to know is whether you made a statement? - Yes; not about the dogs but other incidents.

Was the statement read over to you? - No, there was no necessity to read it back. I knew exactly what I had said in it.

Did you then sign the statement without having it read over to you? - It was in May, I never signed it; whether it was read to me I cannot remember but I do know everything that appeared there.

Cross-examined by MAJOR CRANFIELD: I want to ask you about the occasion when you received the scar on your arm. Do you remember the incident well? - I remember it well.

What did the Kapo hit you with? - With a stick.

What kind of stick - describe it. - It was a thick stick.

Was it a round one? - I do not know; I only felt it.

How many blows did he give you? - I remember receiving one blow after which I fell and am not conscious of what happened afterwards.

Are you telling the Court that as a result of a blow on the arm you fell to the ground unconscious? - I fell to the ground and friends of mine bound my arm with a dirty piece of rag which later caused blood poisoning.

Did you receive on this occasion one blow or more than one blow? - I do not remember; I fell after the first blow. It was such a strong one that my arm broke.

I am asking you these questions because you have told me you remember the incident well. Do you still say that you do not know whether you received one blow or more than one blow? - I am not able to answer the question because after being knocked down and got up I went to have my hair clipped.

You answer in English was "My arm broke". Do I understand you to say that as a result of this blow a bone in your arm was broken? - The bone was not broken but there was an open gash just below the elbow and from the dirt blood poisoning set in later.

Did you go to the prison hospital to have the wound dressed? - No.

Why not? - Because there rest of the people were coming in and by the time our hair had been clipped we had been issued with clothes and shown our blocks it was 11 at night.

I can understand that, but why did you not go the next day? - A person was so unimportant and I discovered the first day that nobody cared for anybody else and I was unable to do anything for myself.

Do you know Dr. Bimko? - Yes.

Was she not working in the hospital at Auschwitz while you were there? - She was not there at the time, she arrived later.

Were there not other prisoners working in the prison hospital? - Quite likely there were, but my block leader took no interest in it and I could not have gone there myself; the only people who were being sent to the camp hospital were people who had a temperature of over 40 degrees and I only had a smashed arm.

I suggest to you that that is untrue, that there were a number of prisoners doing medical work in the hospital and if you had taken the trouble to go there you would have had your arm dressed? - When I first arrived at Auschwitz I did not know where the hospital was and everything was so dreadful in the camp.

Do you realise that it is owing to the poisoning which set in that the scar on your arm now looks so bad? - Yes, because the dirt and because first aid was not rendered in time.

Do you remember telling the Court yesterday of an occasion 14 days before the British troops arrived when you say you save a girl beaten? - Did I say it?

Do you remember telling us yesterday of an occasion 14 days before the British troops arrived when you say you save a girl beaten?

COLONEL BACKHOUSE: I think it would be better if my friend would say what the witness really said - about 14 days.

MAJOR CRANFIELD: Certainly. (To the witness): About a fortnight? - (No answer)

Do you remember or not?

THE INTERPRETER: She does not seem to. The answer actually is: "If I said so it must be true".

COLONEL BACKHOUSE: Perhaps if my friend really wants to turn her mind to the incident he will put what was said.

MAJOR CRANFIELD: I will read from the transcript.

THE JUDGE ADVOCAT: What is the page?

COLONEL BACKHOUSE: It is on page 26.

MAJOR CRANFIELD: I will put it another way.

COLONEL BACKHOUSE: If my friend wants to ask the witness about the statement she previously made the witness is entitled to know what the statement is.

MAJOR CRANFIELD: With all respect it will be appreciated the point at issue is a statement was made yesterday describing the incident which my instructions are never took place. The witness made an affidavit, which is on page 157 of the summary, setting out a variety of incidents which she alleges took place at Auschwitz and Belsen and she does not include in that affidavit the incident which she described yesterday. I do not want to lead her on to it, but if she now says she does not remember the incident at all I think I shall leave it there.

COLONEL BACKHOUSE: I am afraid it cannot be left there. If my friend asks a question the witness is entitled to know what he is talking about. She does not say she does not remember the incident; what she says is that she is not clear what he is talking about. However, if my friend likes to leave it I will put it in re examination.

THE PRESIDENT: Did the witness say she must have said it?

THE INTERPRETER: What she actually said was "If I said that yesterday it must be true".

COLONEL BACKHOUSE: It has not been clearly put to her what she said yesterday, or what my friend is talking about.

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: My note, Major Cranfield, was that the witness was saying that one of the accused, Grese, had beaten a girl. You remember we had the question: "What was the stock?". Cannot you put that to her quite categorically?

MAJOR CRANFIELD: Yes, very well. (To the witness): Do you remember telling us yesterday that you had seen Grese, No. 9, beating a girl in Belsen about a fortnight before the British troops arrived? - I remember now, it was in the kitchen.

Are you clear that that took place at Belsen? - I am certain it was in Belsen; I am not sure what rank she had.

Was Grese in charge of the kitchen or working there at that time? - Grese was not the kitchen Kommandant; she came there with the Lager Kommandant on inspections.

What did she beat the girl with? - With a riding crop made of leather.

Will you describe this riding crop? - I am unable to describe it more accurately than to say that it was a riding whip and it was made of leather.

If I tell you that at Auschwitz Grese carried a stick and sometimes a whip, but that at Belsen she never carried either, are you sure that you are not confused over this incident? - In Auschwitz she wore a pistol and in Belsen she went about with a riding whip; she was one of the few SS women who had a permit to carry arms.

I was going to ask you about that. Was she wearing a pistol at the time of this incident? - I am unable to say; perhaps it is possible that by that time members were not allowed to carry arms.

Why did you say yesterday she had a pistol but she was using a stock?

COLONEL BACKHOUSE: I must object because my friend has there, I am sure, unintentionally confused the witness. It was in answer to a different question that she said that. It was in answer to a general question: "What did she use for these beatings?". "These beatings" had referred both to Auschwitz and Belsen, and the witness replied "She had a pistol but she was using a stock".

MAJOR CRANFIELD: With great respect the answer before was: "I Have seen her do it in Auschwitz and also about a fortnight before the British troops liberated Belsen I saw her beat a girl in camp". It is perfectly true that the next question was: "What did she use for these beatings?" but the answer, in my submission, clearly referred to the incident which is described "She had a pistol but she was using" in the incident of the beating of the girl "a stock". I submit I am perfectly entitled to challenge the witness on the contradiction between her evidence yesterday and her evidence today.

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: Major Cranfield, if it is any consolation to you I interpreted it the way you did. My note was taken on that basis: "She used the stock but she had a pistol". It is a matter for the Court and not for me. You can put your question to her and you can make your point on it afterwards in your speech. I suggest you put this: did you yesterday say that she beat the girl with a stock and she had a pistol?

MAJOR CRANFIELD: It is a pistol I am asking about. Yesterday she said she had a pistol and then she said not. (To the witness): Why did you say yesterday that she had a pistol? - I mentioned that she had a revolver because I remember she made use of it at Auschwitz.

Did you see the girl after the beating? - Yes, I saw her; she worked in the kitchen with me.

What were her injuries as a result of the beatings? - She had a terrible headache and she had marks on her body.

Did she go to hospital? - No.

Did she carry on with her work? - No, she was lying in bed in her block and we looked after her.

Do you consider that a light beating or a severe beating? - It was fairly strong but as the cost of it was not death we considered t as a light beating.

The riding crop used was a leather one, was it not? - Yes, it was a leather one.

Why did you say yesterday in answer to the President: "I do not know what the stock was made of"? - I remember that I said it was not a wooden one, but I had no opportunity to see the whip precisely as I did not feel it either.

This all happened about a fortnight before the British troops arrived? - About two weeks before.

Of all the incidents at Auschwitz and Belsen that you have described it is in date the last one? - It was the last one before the British troops arrived, but when the British troops arrived there were many other incidents.

COLONEL BACKHOUSE: There was another incident.

MAJOR CRANFIELD: I am sorry, the question has been improperly framed. There is another incident later. (To the witness): About a fortnight after the incident when the British troops arrived you would have had no difficulty in remembering the details of this beating? - Yes, since I am able to remember incidents which took place two years before I would be more able to remember incidents which took place two weeks before.

Do you remember after the liberation a committee of prisoners was set up to receive complaints against the German warders? - I do not know whether it was a committee or not, but I know from the Intelligence, British Police, some men were coming for investigations from prisoners.

Were they investigating complaints by the prisoners against the Germans? - Yes, they investigated the cases.

Did you have several interviews with the British sergeants or officers? - Yes.

Were you told that what was wanted was detailed charges against specific persons whom you could recognise rather than general accusations? - I had not been told anything; the only thing they told me was that I had to tell them my experiences in the camp and therefore I mentioned only those people whom I remembered best.

Was it not made quite clear to you that it was little use talking of unknown people injuring other unknown people, but that if you spoke of specific injury done by a person you could recognise something could be done? - It was not necessary to give me any explanations; I was describing only my experiences in the camp.

You remember that finally a written statement was taken down and you signed it? - Yes.

Why did you not include in it this incident of the beating which was a specific accusation against a specific person present there for you to recognise? - I am able now to add many things to my descriptions and not everything I told at that time was written down.

While you have been waiting to be called as a witness have you been outside the Court with Dr. Bimko, Litwinska, Frommer, Jonas and other Prosecution witnesses? - We were always together; we are sleeping together and we are being fed together.

I suggest to you that you are hopelessly confused about this alleged beating. What do you say to that? - I stress once more that I remembered it very well and I can add many other incidents.

I suggest to you that the additions to your affidavit which you have thought of now are a result of the discussions which go on between you and the other female prosecution witnesses? - It is untrue; we have no need to talk about these things when we are together. We had so many experiences that we can talk spontaneously but unfortunately we are not given the opportunity of telling them.

Cross-examined by CAPTAIN ROBERTS: You worked in the kitchen at Belsen, did you not? - Yes.

How long were you working? Was it the whole of the time you were at Belsen? - I started my work eight days after I arrived at Belsen. I arrived on the 18th January, so I started my work on the 26th January, and I worked there till the arrival of the British troops.

You told us that because you worked in the kitchen you got a bed and you also got extra food. The work in the kitchen, was not that a very much sought after job? - Yes, it is true, but not everybody in the camp was able to do it the work because it was very hard; we had to work from 3 o'clock in the morning till 9 o'clock at night.

How did you get the job? - The man in charge of the cookhouse and the arbeitsführer, the leader of the work.

Did you always work in the same cookhouse? - Yes.

Which cookhouse was it? - At the first camp near the hospital.

Will you tell me how far from the main gates of the camp the cookhouse was? - Half a kilometre from the main gate.

Do you know the number of the cookhouse? - No. 3, and when the British troops arrived it was the kitchen E or D, I do not remember.

Is that the cookhouse in two sections? - Yes, there is a kind of a square separating the sections.

How far apart were those two sections? - About 30 yards, or perhaps more.

One of the sections was closer to the main gate and one was further away. In which one did you work? - I worked in that part that was closer to the gate.

Was not that part of the cookhouse in the charge of a man called Jenner, an SS man? - The woman supervisor of the cookhouse is here, but I do not know her name.

You remember the incident of the shooting which you described, on the day the British troops arrived? - Yes.

You have identified No. 16 (Karl Flrazich) as having taken part in that shooting? - Yes.

Did he not normally work in the cookhouse farthest from the main entrance; the section furthest from the main entrance? - In that part that I worked in, the accused, No. 16 (Karl Flrazich), was the supervisor, and in the other part was another supervisor.

Do you know what a Schmeisser gun is? - I do not know. I know what a rifle is and what is a pistol, the kinds of rifles and pistols I am not able to know.

You say you saw No. 16 (Karl Flrazich) shooting. Was he shooting with a pistol? - Yes, from a pistol.

And the other man whom you described as doing some shooting, was he also shooting with a pistol? - It was the supervisor of the second part of the cookhouse. I think he was using a rifle; he was running for the people to shoot them so far as to the woods in the direction of the hospital.

So the other man was out in the open then? - Yes, he was running behind the people in the direction of the woods.

How close to No. 16 were you standing when he was doing this shooting? - I was very close to him because it was in the cookhouse, inside, and even I had the courage to ask him what he was doing, and he answered me that I should not be so arrogant.

What were you doing yourself at the time? - At that time I was working very hard because we had not got any water, and later when the British troops brought water into the camp we had to bring the water in special containers.

So at the time the shooting took place you were actually engaged on doing some work? - I was working till the time of the shooting, and at the very moment I was looking through the window.

And No. 16 (Karl Flrazich) was shooting through the window, was he? - Yes.

You stood behind him and watched the shooting going on? - Yes, I was standing near him, and I even asked him what he was doing, why he was shooting the people who had to suffer so much, but he said: "Don't be so arrogant, do you think if the English people come your fate will be better?"

Was it a normal thing to ask an SS man when he shot at somebody why he did it? - No, it was not a normal occurrence, but it was the date of delivery and therefore I took the courage to ask him.

So you knew then that you were being liberated? - Yes, I knew it but I could not believe it.

How did you know it? - It was after the British lorry arrived and after Kramer was shown to us, and after we had been told that there is no more danger threatening us; but everything seemed to us as a dream.

You said yesterday that certainly some 50 people were killed in this incident. - From both kitchens, yes.

How did you estimate that figure? - When I finished my work I went out and counted the bodies on the ground on both sides of the cookhouse; there were at least 50 or perhaps more.

And this was some hours or so after the British arrived? - Yes, the British troops were leaving the camp to go to other camps, and the wires were encircled by Hungarian troops.

You have already had drawn to your attention this sworn statement which you made on the 25th May 1945? - Yes.

Do you remember in that statement mentioning a certain incident connected with the shooting from your cookhouse? - Certainly, yes.

Is that the same incident as the one you have been telling us about? - Certainly it is the same cookhouse; it is the same cookhouse and the same case.

I will just read to you what you said in this statement and signed: "On the day that the English arrived about three hours before the actual occupation I saw" - and here you accused three people - "shoot with Schmeisser guns at a group of prisoners."

MAJOR MURTON-NEALE: May we have the names?

CAPTAIN ROBERTS: I would rather not having that out now.

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: Sir, if he is quoting from it he should read the quotation in full, I think.


CAPTAIN ROBERTS: "I saw Kramer, Nickolas Jenner and Karl Flrazich shoot with Schmeisser guns at a group of prisoners. They fired through the kitchen window for no reason and I can say that they killed about 22 people." I put it to you that this incident only occurred in your imagination and that the whole thing is a tissue of lies? - Perhaps the report was made not correctly, but I can swear that the whole incident really took place and that the mistake with Kramer is only caused by improper writing down.

CAPTAIN BROWN: No cross examination.

Cross-examined by CAPTAIN FIELDEN: Do you know whether or not it was necessary for an SS man on the administrative staff at Belsen to obtain a special pass before he could enter the large women's compound? - I do not know; I do not know the regulation.


Cross-examined by CAPTAIN NEAVE: Do you understand German? - Yes, a little.

Cross-examined by CAPTAIN PHILLIPS: What nationality were the other prisoners at Auschwitz? - Polish, Russian, Jewish from the whole of Europe, Ukrainians, Yugoslavians, Czech, some German and a large number of some others.

Did many Jews come from Germany? - Very few from Germany; they were destroyed earlier by Hitler.

Will the same answer do for Belsen, were they the same nationalities there? - Yes. In Belsen very few Jewish from Germany, but the percentage of Jews was higher.

Lt. BOYD: No questions.

CAPTAIN MUNRO: No questions.

Cross-examined by Lt. JEDRZEJOWICZ: Did you work in the cookhouse at Auschwitz too? - No.

You said the accused No. 46 (Helena Koper), had been working in the same Kommando as you in have? - Yes.

What was the name of your kommando? - Waberei.

Was it a Strafkommando? - No, but it was one of the worst kommando's, because we had to make out of asphalt some munition instruments .

Did she, No. 46 (Helena Koper) work with you the whole time she stayed at Auschwitz camp? - No, she worked in various Kommando's in order to inform the German authorities about the behaviour of the prisoners.

Where did you get that information from? - Because after she left our Kommando several of us found themselves in penal Kommando's

Had no one from your kommando ever been shifted to a Strafkommando before she left the Wabereikommando? - No. We could not organise anything. In the other kommando's the women employed had opportunity to get some better clothes and if they were caught they were punished, but we were deprived of this opportunity.

May I suggest to you that because you gave an unclear answer to my question you have just invented it and you really did not know the right one? - I do not invent anything.

Did SS men carry out from time to time inspections in the place where the cookhouse orderlies were sleeping?

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: Are you now at Belsen?


THE WITNESS: Yes, it happened from time to time and sometimes Stania took part in them.

What were they after during these inspections? - I do not know. Maybe they wanted to find out that any illegal activities were not being done.

During those inspections did those who did the inspection never find any foodstuff hidden by those cookhouse orderlies in where they were sleeping? - No.

Do you not think it queer to tell the Court that the SS men were looking for secret organisations where the cookhouse orderlies were sleeping and not in the block or in other blocks? - I do not know what they were looking for up there, but they were up there. I do know they did not find anything in our place.

Coming back to Auschwitz, you said that the accused No. 48 (Stanislawa Starostka) was making selections on her own? - Yes.

You said yesterday, and you said it to the British officer taking your statement down in writing, that a certain amount of members of the Auschwitz Camp, SS men, whom you did name were responsible for the selections? - Yes, I said so, and I would like to emphasise that the accused Stania on her own initiative carried out these selections in the block.

Would it mean that the accused No. 48 (Stanislawa Starostka) in this respect would have the same power as the camp Kommandant? - The authority to send people to the gas chambers was granted to everybody in the camp who had an armlet on the arm.

Do you mean by this that prisoners were wearing armlets? - The prisoners did not wear the armlets, but only those who were serving and under the service of the German authorities. Usually this power was given to Blockältesten, Lagerältesten and Kapos.

Can you describe to the Court an armlet like this? - It depended. For instance a Lagerälteste wore an armlet from black material embroidered with a silver thread. Lager kapos wore an armlet that was yellow with black embroidery.

Have you been present at those selections? - Yes.

In what camp was it? - It was in Birkenau, Camp B, block 25.

Did you ever see any other selection, shall we say, to select prisoners who were suffering from scabies for the hospital? - They were not selections, they were parades, so called scabies parades, that took place every Sunday, and these people selected were sent to a special block.

What was the number of that block? - It was No. 25 in Camp A, and from there they were directed to the gas chambers.

If I tell you that you mistook those selections for scabies for selections to the gas chamber what would be your answer? - I did not confuse anything, it was just the same whether you were thin or whether you had scabies, or whether you had other insignificant things on your body, you were always sent to the gas chamber. They were only various excuses how to take people to the gas chamber.

Would you deny that there were cases of scabies in Auschwitz camp? - There were so many people suffering from scabies in Auschwitz camp, but there were some people also who had only some scratches on their body and they were sent also there.

Can you explain why you did not mention the name of the accused No. 48 (Stanislawa Starostka) either in your written deposition or in your evidence of yesterday? - I did not mention her name in any written statement because it was a rumour at the time in the camp spreading about that the Lagerälteste Stania died, and therefore I thought it not necessary to mention her name.

May I suggest to you this reason is not a true one. Why yesterday when you were enumerating the members of Auschwitz camp staff who were making the selections you saw the accused in the dock and you did not mention her name?

COLONEL BACKHOUSE: I think I might point out that she did mention her.

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: She called her Stania.

COLONEL BACKHOUSE: Yes, she did point her out and did point out that she took part in the selections.

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: She referred to her as Stania.

Lt. JEDRZEJOWICZ: Yes, but when she was answering the question put to her by Colonel Backhouse: "Who made the selection?" she said: "Kramer, Hössler, Tauber, Drestzler, Dr. Klein, and Dr. Mengele", and did not mention Stania.

THE WITNESS: Because personnel like Lagerälteste is always available at the spot, but I mentioned that the accused Stania carried out the selections from her own initiative.

THE PRESIDENT: The Court is perfectly clear who she did recognise and who she did not recognise. It is quite clear.

Re-examined by COLONEL BACKHOUSE: One small point. You remember telling us about the occasion when Bormann set her dog upon a woman? - Yes.

You remember telling us that as the woman lay there Bormann spoke to an SS man and said, "This is my work."? - Yes.

What was her manner when she said that? - She was very content with what she did.

I want to ask you a little about the affidavit that you made, that is about the statement which you made and signed at Belsen. Did you give a detailed account in that signed statement of every beating, shooting and ill treatment that you saw during the years that you were in a concentration camp? - There were so many cases of ill treatment during my stay in the camp that the officer would not have been able to write down everything I could tell him.

How long would it have taken if you had written them all down? - I am sure long weeks.

Is there any doubt at all in your mind of the truth of what you have told the Court today? - No, but I have some doubts as I told too little.

In answer to Major Cranfield you said that you could tell us of a good many more instances of Grese's conduct? - Yes. I am able to tell.

As it has been put to you that you were not telling the truth because you had not told these things before, tell the Court now of some more instances of Irma Grese's conduct. - Yes, I am able to say.

Will you tell it now? - In Camp A, Block 9, Blockälteste Ria and Hössler and Dr. Enna, the prison doctor, made a selection for the gas chamber and two girls, two selected girls, jumped out of the window and accused mentioned before came, approached them, and when they were lying on the ground shot them twice.

Can you tell us more about her? - She was always active at the camp gate making inspections, and if any of the prisoners wore another stocking or another shoe, or anything like that, he or she would be beaten by her.

What did she beat them with? - I cannot remember what with because I had to march at attention, but it depended on the circumstances with things that were available at the moment.

To turn to another point. You have been asked a good many questions about dates, to give dates of events. Were you given calendars either in Auschwitz or in Belsen? - No, I had not a calendar but these things I remember very well because they were so terrible and ghastly.

(The witness withdraws)

HELEN HAMMERMASCH is called in and having been duly sworn is examined by COLONEL BACKHOUSE as follows:

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: The witness will give her evidence in Polish and she declares that this oath will be binding on her conscience.

COLONEL BACKHOUSE: What is your full name? - Helen Hammermasch.

How old are you? - 25.

What is your nationality? - I am a Jewess born in Poland.

What was your occupation before the war? - I was a student. I went to school.

What were you studying? - Medicine.

What happened to you when the Germans entered Poland? - I ran away to Hungary before the Germans came near.

What happened to you in Hungary? - In 1941 I was deported back to Poland and given into the hands of the Gestapo.

What happened to you when you returned to Poland? - The whole of my family was arrested and until 1942 I was in Poland, after which I escaped back to Hungary.

Were you again arrested in Hungary? - I was arrested once again and sent to a concentration camp in Hungary.

Did you eventually reach Auschwitz? - Yes, in 1944 I arrived at Auschwitz.

What happened to you when you arrived at Auschwitz? - When I arrived how many thousands there were I could not say, but there were many. There was a selection immediately we got out of the train and some people were sent in vehicles to what I later learned to be the crematoriums. I was one of the few to be sent to the camp.

Did you not attend any other selections after you reached Auschwitz? - I was at several.

Can you name any of the persons who attended those selections as selectors? - At the first selection when I arrived from Hungary there were Dr. Klein, Dr. Mengele, and Camp Commandant Kramer.

Would you now come down here and have a look at the persons in the dock and see if you can recognise any of them? - (Witness does so) No. 1 was Camp Commandant Kramer; No. 2 I think is Dr. Klein but I am not certain; No. 5 is Lager Commandant Hössler from Auschwitz. No. 7 is Oberaufseherin Volkenrath; No. 8 (Herta Ehlert) I know from Belsen but I do not know her name; No. 9 is Oberaufseherin Grese or Greese, I am not certain of that. No. 11 is Arbeitsdienstführer called Löbauer Hilde. I remember No. 40 (Gertrude Fiest) from Belsen; I do not know her name. No. 48 (Stanislawa Starostka) I know from Auschwitz and Belsen. She was a Lagerälteste.

You told the Court that on the first selection Kramer and Klein were both present. Have you seen either or both of them on any other selections? - At further selections I did not see Kramer but I did see Dr. Klein.

Did Kramer take any active part at this selection? - Yes, he took an active part. He chose people and had them loaded into vehicles.

Did he assist at all with the loading? - Yes, he helped. He chose the people and he beat them if they cried because they knew what awaited them.

What sort of people were selected? - There was no method in the selection. It was done according to the whim and fancy of the people concerned.

Did Klein take any active part in the selection? - He also chose people and therefore took an active part.

Where were you put to work at Auschwitz? - After four weeks in so-called quarantine I was put to work in the leder fabrik.

What is a leder fabrik? - Leather factory.

How were you treated there? - They treated us very badly there. We had two overseers, one was called Pfor and the other Otto Graf.

How did Graf treat you? - We used to be beaten every day and once he beat a girl so severely that she was taken away dead.

On what part of the body did he beat the woman? - The whole of the body. He kicked her and beat her with a rubber truncheon.

Did you know a Polish girl called Marilla Dombroska? - Yes, I knew her. That is the girl that was killed by Otto Graf.

Have you seen him beat anyone else? - Yes, for no reason he sometimes made us undress and beat us with the rubber truncheon.

Did he speak to you at all of the crematorium? - He quite often spoke about the crematorium where he was engaged half the day. He said that women's bodies were more suitable for burning than men's.

You mentioned that there was a second overseer called Pfor. How did he behave towards you? - He behaved in a very much similar manner. He used to beat people and on one occasion he beat a girl so much that she was taken away dead. The girl was a French woman.

Did she die immediately? - Not immediately. She lay there the whole day and only died towards the evening.

Did you know a man there called Grenke? - Yes, I knew him. He was in charge of the leather factory.

How did he behave towards prisoners? - Very badly indeed, I saw him beat men until they were covered in blood. He used to make a sport of it.

Did he do anything other than beat them? - I did not see anything because men were separate from women, he mostly worked in the part where there were men.

You recognised next Hössler. What can you tell the Court about Hössler? - Of Hössler I say that before we were moved to Belsen he ordered six girls to be hanged before we left Auschwitz. I heard that he had caused those six girls to be hanged. I saw four of them hanged and although I did not see the other two, by the time we had returned from work the hanging had been committed.

Will you tell the Court how you came to see these four girls hanged? - Our Kommando came in from work. We were sent straight away to an Appelle where we were formed up in fives and the execution took place.

Did anybody make an announcement about it? - Hössler had an accusation. I heard how he read something out. I did not hear what it was. I only know that they were accused of stealing from the factory Union.

Did you work at all in the hospital whilst you were there? - I did not work in the hospital but I had friends of mine working there.

Did they tell you anything of what happened in the hospital? - Yes, they told me that patients in the hospital instead of receiving glucose injections were injected with petrol and lysol.

Did they tell you what was the result of those injections? - Persons who received such injections died after a few minutes.

Perhaps this is slipping out of chronological order, but it deals with this same point and I think it is an appropriate time to take it. After the British arrived in Belsen did you assist the British doctors there? - Yes, I helped British doctors, and we worked in one block and did all we could for the numerous sick.

Did you at any time go into the medical stores there? - Together with the doctors we made a search of all the hospitals and in one of them we found a case full of medicine which we took back to the block.

What did you find amongst those medical supplies? - We found various pills and bottles. One bottle which was labeled Glukose and was sealed was later opened in the presence of a British doctor and was found to contain petrol.

Had you intended to use that bottle for injections yourself? - On the order of a British doctor I had intended to make an injection with it.

How did you discover it was petrol? - By the smell and by pouring a small quantity on the table and setting it alight. From that I knew it was petrol.

What made you smell it and pour some out like that? - I remembered that it was a popular practice in Auschwitz and before making use of it I thought I would make sure that it was not petrol before using it.

Did you hear of any further medical practices in Auschwitz? - I not only heard of it, I know there were various experiments. In Block 10 there were young women as I later heard virgins - on whom experiments were made with artificial insemination.

Were you told the method that was used? - I was told by one of my friends who worked as a nurse in the hospital. She had been there and she told me how it was done. The victim was hung up by her legs and was injected in order that her blood might circulate freely. She then received an injection in which the sperm was introduced. After a short time the victim was in great pains and quite often not long after died.

I want to turn from Auschwitz to the time when you went to Belsen. When did you go to Belsen? - At the beginning of January we were evacuated from Auschwitz to Belsen, and quite a lot of people met their death on the way for anybody who could not keep up was shot.

How did you travel from Auschwitz to Belsen? - We marched on foot day and night without receiving food and we were beaten at every step by the SS

How long did it take? - Eight days we went on foot after which we were loaded on to open trucks and as the weather was cold it was frosty and a large number of women died.

When you arrived at Belsen how were you treated there? - We were chased into the frost with just a light dress on and had to parade for the shower baths. We stood about outside lightly dressed for a very long time before we received any soup and after that we were sent to an empty hut.

Whilst you remained at Belsen what was the food like? - We should have received three-quarters of a litre of soup; actually we received half a litre of soup which was normally issued towards evening and a crumb of bread.

Did you receive bread every day? - At the beginning daily, but then later not.

Did you see any persons beaten at Belsen? - One evening I saw how a young woman was being beaten, Kramer, Volkenrath and another female were present, also Blockführer Kasainiky and another whose name I do not remember.

Was that a light beating or a severe beating? - It was a very severe beating; she was kicked and beaten with a wooden stick.

Do you remember any incident in the Blockälteste's room? - It was not in the Blockälteste's room; it was in the same block.

What was that incident? - I saw Volkenrath and two others - I recognise one but not the other because she had her back turned towards me - undress and severely beat a girl.

When you say you recognise one of the other two, do you mean you recognise her as somebody here or what do you mean? - I recognise her here; she is No. 8.

Would No. 8 stand up? - (The accused No. 8 Herta Ehlert, stands up) Is that the woman you mean? - That is the same woman.

The woman who you just recognised you told us was the woman who was with Volkenrath on this occasion. Have you seen her concerned in any other incident? - I did not see her take an active part on any other occasion, but I have heard about it. I would like to add that No. 8 was present when the woman was undressed that i talked about and she was searched for something and beaten at the same time.

I thought that was the incident you were speaking of. I think we are getting a little mixed. There are two different incidents you spoke of. You have just said now that woman No. 8 was present when this girl was stripped and searched and beaten? - Yes, she was present.

What was the incident of which you spoke when this woman was present? - One was this case I was talking about and the other one was in the block when Kramer and the others were present. The word "block" that was translated should not be "block"; it was a small hut in which the two Blockführers slept.

The next person that you recognise was No. 11 Hilde Löbauer. What can you tell us about her? - I worked and only know that she selected people for work, otherwise I know nothing about her.

I am sorry; when I said she was the next person that you recognised I missed out Grese. What can you tell us about her? - I did not personally see her do anything because I was working myself, but I heard that she beat up people.

Would No. 40 stand up? - (The accused No. 40, Gertrude Fiest, stands up) You recognise this woman. What can you tell the Court about her? - I can only say that she was a Lagerälteste and she took the roll call, Appelle; more I cannot say about her.

Was that at Belsen or was it at Auschwitz? - At the beginning I saw her in Auschwitz and later a Belsen.

Would No. 48 stand up? (The accused No. 48 Stanislawa Starostka, stands up) What can you tell the Court about No. 48? - She was a person I was talking about just now; she was the Lagerälteste.

No. 40 was the one I asked you about. - I know very little about her; I only saw her several times at Belsen.

And it was not this woman who was the Lagerälteste? - May I have permission to say a few words of what I saw in Belsen concerning Kramer?

Yes, certainly.

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: I do not know whether my note is right now. Dealing with No. 40, Gertrude Fiest, I originally put down: "I can only say that she was the Lagerälteste and took roll call first at Auschwitz and later at Belsen". Is that right?

COLONEL BACKHOUSE: That is wrong. That applies to No. 48. She said she was speaking of No. 48, not 40.

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: What does she say about No. 40?

COLONEL BACKHOUSE: She says she knows nothing about No. 40 except she saw her about the place. (To the witness): You wish to tell the Court something about Kramer at Belsen, of what you saw of Kramer there? - When I first came to Belsen I noticed that a kind of children's building was being erected. At this work some Jews, Polish Aryans and Russians were employed and I saw that Kramer beat these people and on one occasion he kicked a Russian man whom I recognised as a Russian because he spoke Russian he hit him so much that he fell down on the ground and could not stand up any more and was left lying in the snow. I remained at the place for another 50 minutes and the Russian did not stand up; from that I deduced that he was dead.

With what did Kramer beat him? - He kicked him with his boots.

THE PRESIDENT: I am not quite clear about that.

COLONEL BACKHOUSE: Do you use the same word for "beat" and "kick"?

THE INTERPRETER: No. She said: "He kicked him with his boots".

COLONEL BACKHOUSE: When the witness first referred to the incident what was the word she used then?

THE INTERPRETER: "Beating". The witness asks whether she is allowed to say a few things about Belsen.

COLONEL BACKHOUSE: We want to clear this up first. You first of all said that you saw Kramer beating the Russian; now you say you saw him kicking him with his boots. Did he beat him?

THE INTERPRETER: By the word "beating" she understood "Kopać", that is "kick".

COLONEL BACKHOUSE: Listen to me carefully. The witness said a Polish word. Did she use the word "beat" at all?


COLONEL BACKHOUSE: Is that a Polish word?


COLONEL BACKHOUSE: What does it mean?


COLONEL BACKHOUSE: She says by the Polish word "Bić" she meant what?

THE INTERPRETER: She meant: "Kopać" - kick.

THE PRESIDENT: I understand that she says she saw Kramer kicking the Russian with his boots - beating him up with his boots?

COLONEL BACKHOUSE: I think that is obviously so.

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: My note is out of date. Is this right: "When a hut was being built for children Kramer beat a Russian girl..."


THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: "Who lay in the snow but would not get up ..."

COLONEL BACKHOUSE: "Could not get up"; in fact she concluded he was dead because after 50 minutes he did not get up.

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: Are we now going on with the same place?

COLONEL BACKHOUSE: We are still on the same incident.

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: And she says she saw Kramer kick a Russian with his boots?

COLONEL BACKHOUSE: We are on the same incident. She says that by "beat" she meant that he was kicked by Kramer with his boots.

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: That is all one incident, is it?

COLONEL BACKHOUSE: Yes, all one incident. (To the witness): What else is it that you wanted to tell the Court about Belsen? - I would like to say that during the last few days before the British troops arrived it was terrible, starvation in the camp, and the people were dying at the rate of 80 or 90 men in each block a day and I know for sure that if the British troops would arrive two days later the Germans intended to annihilate us.

Cross-examined by MAJOR WINWOOD: How long were you in Auschwitz? - From the beginning of 1944 until January, 1945.

When you say the beginning of 1944 what month do you mean? - I do not remember exactly, but as far as I can recollect it was April.

Is it not true that these selections were made to divide people into those fit for work and those not fit for work? - I know only that if selections were held they were held for the purpose of sending people to the gas chamber.

I put it to you that nobody was sent to the gas chamber until he or she had been chosen by a doctor? - I know a different story; I know that a doctor was present at these parades only to point out as many people as possible and amongst them were not ill people.

Was it the doctor who chose them? - The doctor was choosing the men and the camp Kommandant, Kramer; it was really not choosing but only trying to find out as many people as possible.

If the object was to send as many people as possible to the gas chamber why were they not all sent to the gas chamber? - Because some people were needed for work.

I will come back to my previous question. Were they not chosen as being suitable for work and unsuitable for work? - No, absolutely no.

When they had been chosen on this first occasion when you arrived was there some difficulty in getting people who had been chosen, a large party which had been chosen, into the truck? - There was some difficulties caused by the fact that the people selected were aware of the fate that awaited them, therefore they tried to escape and they jumped out of the trucks and they cried and they were beaten terribly.

In which hospital were these alleged injections of petrol and lysol supposed to have taken place? - In a hospital in Vilkenrath(?).

Is it not true that all hospitals in Auschwitz came under the direct authority of the senior doctor in Auschwitz? - There was not only the senior medical officer but there were some other officers responsible too.

To whom were the doctors responsible?

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: I do not really see that the Court will attach any weight to any answer the witness gives on this point; she cannot possibly know what the organisation was.

MAJOR WINWOOD: She was a doctor.

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: You are asking her whether injections which took place in a particular hospital were done under the authority of a senior officer. You can call evidence on that if you like, but how can she know?

MAJOR WINWOOD: Very well. (To the witness): When you went to Belsen did the conditions in the camp with regard to food and accommodation get worse gradually or suddenly? - They deteriorated gradually.

Would you say that by the beginning of March things had got into a very critical state from the point of view of looking after the internees? - Yes I can state it.

Did you ever see any of the transports when they arrived at Belsen camp? - Very frequently.

Is it true that many of the people were ill and that many of them were very ill? - I cannot say that, but I know that if they were not ill on arrival they became ill after three days.

Is it true that many people arrived with the transports dead? - No, when they arrived at Belsen they were alive but after a short time many of them died.

I am now referring to the occasion on which you allege the girl was beaten in the presence of Kramer and certain other people. Do you know what this girl had done? - I do not know.

Did you not know that she had been brought back into the camp because she had attempted to escape? - I know only from what she said herself that she was not guilty and she wanted only to save herself, to escape.

She had in fact attempted to escape from the camp? - I cannot know this.

If she had attempted to escape from the camp and had been caught so escaping is it as far as you are concerned in the province of the Kommandant to punish her? - I do not know whether he was entitled to do so, but I know he did so on many occasions.

You said that the girl stated she was innocent - not guilty? - Yes.

Somebody must have said that she was guilty? - I had not heard anything - later on.

With regard to the other occasion on which you allege Kramer kicked a Russian man, when did you first think of this story? - As I said before I saw it myself; it was near the children's building Kramer was kicking the man in such a manner that the man could not stand any more.

When did you first mention this story? - To whom?

To anybody? - For the first time here in the Court.

Do you remember making a statement to a British officer on the 19th of May of this year at Belsen? - I do remember.

Why did you not include this story in this statement? - Because I did not remember it at the moment.

When did you remember it? - I recollected it later.

Did you remember it when you came to Lüneburg? - Yes, I remembered.

Do you know Dr. Bimko? - Yes, I know her.

I suggest to you that you got this story from Dr. Bimko and that you were never there yourself on the scene of the accusation? - I have never talked about it with Dr. Bimko.

Have you spoken with Dr. Bimko while you have been at Lüneburg? - Yes, I have met her very frequently. I met her.

To return to Belsen. When you found this bottle on which "Glukose" was written and in which you allege was petrol, how many other bottles of a similar kind were there? - Amongst those bottles I brought to my room it was the only one.

Were all the bottles sealed? - Yes, all of them.

The case in which the bottles were, was that also sealed? - The case from which I took this particular bottle was not sealed but it was tied up with a string.

Cross-examined by MAJOR MUNRO: Do you remember telling us about some women who were hanged? - Yes, I do.

Did you know these women? - I used to see them but I did not know them, personally.

Can you say what nationality they were? - They were Jewesses from Poland.

I understood you to say that they had been accused of stealing; is that right? - I heard about it but I do not know whether it is true because whenever people were hanged the Germans must have had some excuse for it.

Did you learn when the offence was supposed to have been committed? - I did not know anything about it so I cannot state it.

Can you remember when the hanging took place? - I do not remember the exact date but it was in winter, about March. I cannot state it for sure.

I think you said in your examination in chief that Hössler had read something out; is that right? - The date of the hanging took place not long before the evacuation of Auschwitz camp to Belsen.

I think you said in your examination in chief that Hössler had read something out; is that right? - Yes, he read something out and I suppose she must have heard it.

Was this the only hanging you saw? - Yes, it was the only case which I witnessed myself.

Was that at Birkenau? - No, it was at Auschwitz.

Who was the camp Kommandant at Auschwitz? - The camp Kommandant in Auschwitz was Hössler.

Was not Auschwitz a very large camp consisting of a number of smaller camps? - Yes, it is the case. Birkenau and Auschwitz and some other camps are called together Auschwitz. The chief camp commander of the whole of the camps was Kramer.

With regard to Belsen, you have told us about two cases of beating, one at which Kramer was present and another one. Just tell me, who is this woman (indicating No. 7, Elisabeth Volkenrath)? - I know that she was the senior supervisor at Belsen and was present at the beating that took place near the Blockführer's room.

Was she also present on the other occasion? - Yes, she was also present at the other beating.

Did you see that woman a lot at Belsen? - Yes, I used to see her very frequently.

Did you see her at Auschwitz? - Yes, I also used to see her in Auschwitz.

Do you know if she has a sister? - I do not know about it.

On the occasion at which Kramer is said to have been present, did this woman participate herself in the beating? - Yes, she also participated in the beating.

Is not it the case that she did not strike any blows herself? - It cannot be the case because I saw myself her hitting the woman.

Where did the beating take place? - It took place once in the Blockführer's room and on the other occasion it was near the window in the corridor when the girl was undressed.

I am only talking at the moment about the occasion at which Kramer was present. Was this occasion in the Blockführer's room? - It was near the room of the Blockführer.

Inside or outside? - Outside on the road.

Where were you? - I was not far away.

How far? - About twenty paces.

What were you doing? - I went to see a friend of mine in another block and I saw it.

Did you stand and watch or did you see it while passing? - I stopped and I watched it especially.

Did you not think that was a risky thing to do? - It was towards the evening, and the people concerned were so busy with the beating that there was no danger of being seen. I should like to correct that statement. I considered that there was no danger of being seen, but later on I was caught and was told to go away.

Was it getting dark? - Yes, it was towards the evening.

Do you recognise this woman (indicating No. 8, Herta Ehlert)? - Yes, she was also present during this incident.

Was she present throughout the incident? - As long as I was there she was there.

I think you told us you were sent away; is that right? - Yes, I was told to go.

Now we come to the other occasion about which you spoke. Do you say that both these women were present then also? - Yes.

Who was beaten? - A young girl.

Did you know her? - No.

When did it take place? - I do not remember the exact date, but I think it was about two days later than the first incident.

Where did it take place? - It was in the block where the Camp Ältester and the work service Ältester live. It was not far from the Blockführer's room.

Was it inside or outside? - It was inside and I saw it through the window.

Did you stand at the window looking in? - Yes, I was standing there for a few minutes because I was afraid to remain longer.

So you did not wait very long; is that right? - No, I stayed there a few minutes.

Do you mean minutes or moments? - A few minutes.

How many minutes? - I do not know exactly.

I thought you said you were afraid to wait? - I did say so.

Did you see either of these two women strike any blows themselves on this occasion? - I saw both of them hitting the girl, first one of them and then the other.

How many others were present? - There was a third one there but I did not see her face because she was standing with her back turned to me.

I put it to you that from where you say you were standing you could not see properly what was going on in this room? - It was not far from the window and there was a light in the room. It was the evening and I could see everything clearly.

Cross-examined by MAJOR CRANFIELD: How well do you understand German? - My knowledge of German is moderate, not very good.

Did the SS man Graf and Oberführer Pfor and the unknown Obersturmführer, whom you say in a statement were at Auschwitz, speak any German? - Yes, they talked to me in German.

How were you able with your limited knowledge of German to depose on oath in your statement to conversations carried out by these men in German? - I do not know the German language perfectly well, but I can always express myself in German.

I now want to ask you about an alleged attack by Oberführer Pfor on a French Jewess; do you remember speaking about that this afternoon? - Yes.

Today you have told the Court that this woman died on the day she was attacked? - Yes.

Your statement was queried by the Prosecuting Officer and you repeated it. In your sworn deposition, taken by an experienced member of the bar, you stated that the woman died two weeks later as the result of her injuries. How do you account for the difference between those two sworn statements? - When I made my first written statement I said that the woman died on the same day. I suppose that the officer who took my evidence misunderstood me.

CAPTAIN ROBERTS: No questions.

CAPTAIN BROWN: No questions.

CAPTAIN FIELDEN: No questions.


CAPTAIN NEAVE: No questions.


LIEUTENANT BOYD: No questions.

CAPTAIN MUNRO: No questions.

Cross-examined by Lt. JEDRZEJOWICZ: How many women's lager were in Auschwitz camp? - I do not know exactly. I do not know how many women's compounds there were in Auschwitz altogether, but in this particular Auschwitz I believe it was only one compound for women.

Was you lager called lager A? - I know it was camp number 1.

Did you ever go to any other lager during your stay at Auschwitz? - When I first came from Hungary in the transport I lived for a short time in Birkenau in camp A and camp B.

Do I understand then that you have not been to lager A or lager B at Birkenau? - I was in Birkenau in camp A and camp B, because it was the custom in Auschwitz camp that the people who were just arriving were sent first to quarantine to camp A and later on when they were able to work they were transferred to camp B in Birkenau and from there to Auschwitz to camp 1 in Auschwitz where there were only people who were working.

Re-examined by COLONEL BACKHOUSE: You have been asked how it comes to be in your affidavit that a woman died two weeks later when you really said she died later the same day. Could the British officer who took that affidavit, who we have been told is an experienced member of the bar, speak Polish? - No.

Who acted as interpreter? - I do not know the person personally, but I do know that it was a woman, a previous prisoner, from the camp.

Do you know what her nationality was? - I do not know.

Did you speak to her in German and she put it into English? - I do not know which one you are talking about. At first I did my statement and then on another occasion I signed it under oath.

Did you have a different interpreter each time? - Yes, they were two different interpreters.

(The witness withdraws)

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